Katy Trail Forum

09/07/2010



My wife & I were on the Katy on Sunday, 9/5, from New Franklin to Hartsburg & back. I wish to state for the record that I found the level of inconsideration, thoughtlessness, & downright rudeness on the part of numerous cyclists to be absolutely appalling. And by far & away, the majority of this behavior came from those who present themselves as “serious cyclists.” We encountered numerous riders who simply came barreling past with no announcement of themselves whatsoever, traveling at high speed. Yes, I know that we all need to be aware of what’s around us, but this action is especially dangerous in that startling others either on bike or foot can cause serious problems. I personally also find it extremely rude of anyone who refuses to acknowledge others on the trail, as if they feel that they are just too good for the common folk. I have been riding the Katy for at least 6 years now & would have to say that I saw more rudeness & discourtesy in this one day than I have in the last 6 years put together. What made matters worse, too, was that being a holiday weekend, there were many families with small or young children, who do at times have a tendency to be children & not follow the proper rules of the trail, no matter how hard Mom & Dad try to keep them in line. These ‘serious cyclists’ also created an unsafe & hostile atmosphere for them as well. I understand that the majority of truly serious cyclists would never act in this manner, & I apologize in advance for offending these people. Those who do act in the manner described above know who you are and now know what others think of you & your behavior.



David from Kansas

I'll second that...

I have a considerble amount of hearing loss and unless someone coming from behind announces themselves, I may not have noticed them in the side view mirror.



Courtesy and common sense go a long way.

Hi David and I agree wholeheartedly with your comments and experience. I have not encountered quite as many such people as you seem to have but I make a point of greeting everyone I pass on the trail, just a Hello or a nod in some cases. To completely ignore such a greeting is downright rude and has nothing to do with bicycling, just common courtesy. I must say that MOST folks return the greeting and often greet with real friendliness. Way to go folks! And it is true that the ones who do not respond seem to be the "serious" riders, full biking outfit, nose to the wheel, etc. Hey guys! If I said hello walking down the street would you refuse to respond? Maybe its just me. Recently I rode Jeff City to Tebbetts, I passed just ONE guy. He refused to speak. I guess it must be me.

Sorry, brother! I’m a cyclist who usually goes at a higher rate of speed. When I’m motoring I pretty much always use a bell. When I’m tired, though, and I’m barely moving (~12 – 14 mph), it seems like a huge effort to me to use it. I’ve noted, though, that you’d like cyclists to warn all the time and I’ll try to do it.



From a cyclist’s perspective, what I would suggest is to provide some feedback: positive or negative. I never know whether announcing my passing is appreciated or considered—I don’t know…showing off? Don’t know how to put it. Like I’m some kind of hot shot, you know? So, I’d suggest giving a wave when cyclists do warn of their passing. This lets me know 1) you heard, 2) you probably appreciate. For negative feedback just yell at the most offensive cyclists “please say ‘on your left’!” or something to that effect. They may not hear, though, because headphones are common.



One more suggestion: reason I use a bell rather than say “on your left” is that I feel it’s more effective. Some people don’t know their right from left or at least they have to think about it for a few seconds, so when they hear you’re going to pass on the left, it creates a dangerous back and forth with both of us zig zagging across the trail. Another thing I’ve noticed is that when people hear “on your left” for some reason they don’t move right or stay straight, but rather they look over their left shoulder to see who said that and their whole body follows. Again, this leads them to the direction I was going to pass them on. Dangerous. All readers, please resist this impulse and just move right.

I have noticed that the "Lance wannabes" as I refer to them are absolute jerks - toward pedestrians, other cyclists, little kids - mostly male, but some are young women.

We have the same problem on the Big Dam Bridge her in NLR/LR. Since I am more ruuner than biker I can offer a simple observation. Runners seem to be much more social and bikers much more cliquish. Runners tend to be much less competitivie where bikers are very competitive. It is nice that we have these improved facilities and trails for ALL to use. From a runners perpective bikers seem rude. From a bikers perspective runners/walkers are merely a nuisance. I agree that the best accomodation would be for all to smile, alert and acknowledge. Have the good time you go out there for and just smile when the rude nerds fly by. You'll feel better.

Thank you all for your positive feedback! As for calling out, I usually try to call out something to the effect of "Coming up behind you" from about 50 feet back. I like to have folks be able to know I'm there before I'm on top of them (keeps them from having a heart attack), & I totaly agree re giving greeting as we pass. Thanks again!

There is a speed limit on the trail 10 mph - or is that just on the Frisco Highline? Regardless, don't the rules for the trail state clearly that you are to announce when you are going to pass someone. And you should do so far in advance as not to startle them and to give them time to move over safely. Or, are these merely suggetions?We could look at the other rules - like, no trash - pets on a leash, etc. These rules are there to keep people safe. (And no, I don't know that your dog does not bite, he's not my friend as I have never met him. And oops, your dog is attached to my leg with it's teeth? Wow my problem, I should have kept my leg out of his mouth?) Everyone wants to have a good time, an enjoyable time. I holler out a good ways back to show respect and allow time for the person ahead to think and would appreciate that they acknowlege they heard me and I usually keep calling out until they do before I pass. I have to laugh at the person who says "motoring" - motors are for the highway! Just kidding - since 12-14 mph is my "motoring speed." I love the Katy - I've even grown to love the desert between Clinton and Calhoun, Bryson rocks!(Whatever) In closing: "May you have air in your tires and not in your head, water in your bottle and not on the trail."

Good one Maggie - you made my day.

I would just like to point out that there are as many rude runners as there are bikers (I am both a runner and a cyclist). Runners simply have more time to socialize with a nod or hello. Sometimes a cyclist is really cruising and passing a lot of people and to say hi to every soul on a trail would be overkill. How about instead of demonizing bikers we acknowledge that there are simply rude people who happen to be riding bikes (or running). I have often struggled with the same thing as others...sometimes you announce you are coming and you get a dirty look. Sometimes people dont hear the bell. My solution is to try to do the bell and as I get closer, say "passing on the left". if I get a dirty look I assume someone just doesnt understand the custom. No harm no foul.

It kind of looks like city folks complaining about other city folks.

Leaving out the Saint Charles area, I may ride the whole trail and see 10 other bikes during the week. Being a lonely soul, I appreciate any contact with humanity. Only problem I have had was when I was lost in my thoughts and not paying attention.

I've been riding the MKT and Katy since '98, and I signal that I'm passing probably 90% of the time. Occasionally, people look back and see me coming, or they're wearing headphones, so I see no point in calling ahead if it's not needed or won't be heard.



While I see your point that many cyclist are rude, you also have to keep in mind that the trail--like a road--has general traffic rules, even if they're not written in stone. Stay to the right, look behind yourself, and pay full attention to those around you.



I don't know how many times I've yelled, "ON YOUR LEFT!" only to be ignored due to headphone use, people chatting and not paying attention to anyone else, etc. I also have a lot of issues with people walking their dogs on those extending leashes and not caring that they are, in effect, taking up the entire width of the trail. Add conversing on top of that, and cyclists quickly end up at a road block whether we signal or not.



Also, if I chose to ignore you, it's not because I think I'm better than you. Maybe I had a bad day at work; maybe I'm thinking about boobs; maybe I'm singing a song in my head and can't work out a lyric. Anyway, it's not about you, so leave your narcissism at home, and don't try to put it off on others.

Aaron, that needed to be said, any you hit it right on the head.

Perhaps, you are one of the very ones described above, along with the problem of narcissism, since you obviously have not a thought for anyone else on the trail.

People use the KATY trail for a variety of reasons, none of which are "wrong". This time of year, some folks want to go out for a quiet stroll and see the changing of seasons. Others go for a 10 mile bike ride to get some much needed exercise. Others use the trail as a training grounds for running or cycling events. Some just like to be able to ride their bikes or run without worrying about car traffic. At most times, the trail is plenty wide enough for everyone, but please don't take up the whole trail with a 20' dog leash, or run 4 abreast, or ride bikes 3 abreast at 8 mph unless you are keeping an eye out for those who don't want to use the trail in the same way that you do. Not everyone wants to stop and chat with you, and not everyone wants to be chatted to.



For those folks not acquainted with cycling etiquette - "On Your Left" means that there is someone approaching from behind on your left hand side and will be passing you very soon. If you hear "On Your Left", please keep to the right and hold your line to avoid a collision.

Dave, when you are driving your car, do you expect everyone to wave to you and honk when they pass? Although it's not a highway, on a bike trail the cyclist has responsibilities to know what is comming up behind, just like driving a car. If you put yourself in a position where you are "startled" everytime someone passes you, you are the dangerous one. I just spent Saturday on the KATY and met a lot of people. Many smiled and waved, some didn't acknowledge me, but it didn't occur to me that they were all narcissistic.



Just enjoy the trail without finding fault with everyone that doesn't behave the way you want them to.

Oh Chris! That question you asked is ridiculous. No one is driving cars on the trail, (atleast they are not supposed to,) so there is no comparing. But since you have, don't you have the responsibility to avoid hitting someone or something? Defensive driving. Duh. To insinuate that Dave is putting himself "in a position to be startled" and "the dangerous one," is ridiculous, as well. Get over yourself. Dave is making a valid point and he appears to be asking more people to ACT IN A SAFE MANNER, that's all. I don't think it is too much to ask. It's about caring for others and behaving in a safe manner and to think about others and not always, "ME, ME, ME." Is it too much to ask? Or are we too 'serious?'

Just curious, but why don't more people ride the trail? It can't be because of rude people.



Man, if I only lived closer I would ride several times a week.

Brad, those deemed "rude" are far in the minority. Fortunately, there are many more that are cordial and considerate than those that are not. Some of us do ride two or three times a week when possible and are not averse to a tip of head, wave of the hand, a hi, hello, good morning, ding of the bell, an "on the left", it's just not that taxing. Maybe I'm not a serious cyclist. For those that don't mess with all that, no problemo for me, it's their parade as they see it.

Well, now that everyone has contibuted various opinions (which are like noses, everyone has one) I choose to be part of the solution and not the problem and will ride safely and be considerate and respectful to all and encourage others.

The problem with the original post is that it singles out one group. Inconsiderate and oblivious behavior is practiced by people doing all sorts of activities on the trail, not just lycra-clad cyclists. Even then, this is exceptional in my experience. The trail is wide and there is room for everybody.

Simply put...Everyone on the trail needs to "take responsibility" for themselves, and their actions. Just follow the rules that are listed on the boards at various stops along the way...All I have read from the replies above is how each of us in inconveniencing the other. Read and follow: [ RIGHT-OF-WAY. When approaching oncoming users, always move to the right of the trail. Always pass on the left side, and make your intentions known by announcing your approach. Bicyclists should yield to pedestrians. Everyone should yield to horseback riders. ]

And...Everyone on the trail needs to give others some grace too. If someone doesn't wave at you or perform exatly as you would like them too, don't get bent out of shape about it. Perhaps you're just not in their plan at the moment. They probably don't mean to harm the sensitive ego.

This is simple....I am part Native American and when passing on the trail I use a call,"YAYAYAYAYA LALA." One can hear it from a mile away. I suggest everyone practice and use the call.

I'm with Aaron. Except for the boobs part. I too wear spandex and ride fast. Get over it. I smile at other riders and greet them when possible. I usually try my best to voice my arrival "on your left" but some folks don't understand what that means. I once had an old guy snark at me as I rode past, this AFTER I practically screamed that I'm a coming and he was stopped at the side of the road WATCHING ME APPROACH. Dude must not have had his hearing aid in or his glasses cleaned. Mostly I notice that people startle violently and this sometimes results in them going down (seen it and yes, I stopped to lend aid). I always dread coming up on the groups who take up the entire trail but I tell myself that I was a beginner once too. "On your left" is standard biking etiquette. If you're going to use the Katy you should acquaint yourself with the rules or suffer the consequences.

It doesn't bother me when people don't greet me. I don't see a lack of being friendly as being rude. It's just neutral. I wouldn't purposely ignore a person's greeting. But if I'm riding hard I might not realize they greeted me until a couple seconds after. I seldom initiate a greeting. Unless someone is stopped with mechanical trouble, then you'll always hear from me. The outgoingness of cyclists is directly related to the population density of cyclists. When I ride on an L.A. bike path, I'll probably see at least 50 cyclists on an hour ride. It's tedious to greet every one of them. When I was riding through Death Valley, I was really excited that I saw another cyclist. On a tour, I'm friendlier and want to say hi to people. When I'm out for a hard ride, I just want to ride. I don't think you should be bothered by that difference in my attitude.



It is the responsibility of all to share the trail. Part of this means allowing people to pass you safely. If you can't be passed without freaking out and swerving, you have a problem you need to work on. It's nice to call out "on your left" but it shouldn't cause problems if someone does not.



Children are unpredictable traffic hazards. I love taking my nephew riding but it was stressful when he was 5. Parents need to make a judgment call. If your kid can't ride their own bike safely with other people around, put them on a tagalong bike. Tagalong bikes are awesome! When my nephew was 8, I took him on a 33 mile ride on a tagalong and he didn't want to stop. I intentionally do not call out "on your left" when passing a group with young children. The children often look over their left shoulder and swerve into you. I don't blame kids for being traffic hazards. But I will blame their parents.

it seems very exciting and i had a relative in the civil war and my question is how does one become a member of the reenactment

it seems very exciting and i had a relative in the civil war and my question is how does one become a member of the reenactment

ride your bike as fast as you can while on the katy trail with your eyes closed and when you wake up you will be in the middle of a battlefield fully engaged in battle

ride your bike as fast as you can while on the katy trail with your eyes closed and when you wake up you will be in the middle of a battlefield fully engaged in battle

Food prices are good in the Mokane Market, but do expect to pay to purchase water. Gallon jugs are on a shelf in the front. They will not let you use a faucet to fill your bottle for free. The female co-owner who filled my bottle with less than a quart of tap water charged me $0.90 for it. She was not cordial either. In fact, she was the only person I met during my trek across MO who was not helpful and cordial.

As a backpacker, I stopped quite a few places to get water on the trail. That was the only instance where I was charged for a little tap water. Obviously the store needs to make a profit to stay in business, but I thought the water charge was excessive. My hike on the Katy Trail was great. I met a lot of wonderful people. The Mokane Market was my only disappointment. I’d hike the Katy Trail again, but I’d skip the Mokane Market.

Food prices are good in the Mokane Market, but do expect to pay to purchase water. Gallon jugs are on a shelf in the front. They will not let you use a faucet to fill your bottle for free. The female co-owner who filled my bottle with less than a quart of tap water charged me $0.90 for it. She was not cordial either. In fact, she was the only person I met during my trek across MO who was not helpful and cordial.

As a backpacker, I stopped quite a few places to get water on the trail. That was the only instance where I was charged for a little tap water. Obviously the store needs to make a profit to stay in business, but I thought the water charge was excessive. My hike on the Katy Trail was great. I met a lot of wonderful people. The Mokane Market was my only disappointment. I’d hike the Katy Trail again, but I’d skip the Mokane Market.

The Katy Trail will be closed west of Pilot Grove, from Harriston Station Rd. (mile marker 206.5) to Ewing Rd. (mile marker 209), for repairs to the Taylor Branch culvert. The trail is estimated to be closed for a month, from Oct. 4 to Nov. 5. There are no safe detour options, so Katy users will need to avoid the area. Signs will be placed at Pilot Grove and Clifton City trailheads announcing the closed section. Signs and barricades will be placed at Harriston Station and Ewing roads to prevent users from accessing this section. For a status update, check our website: http://www.mostateparks.com/katytrail/index.html. Or, email me at dawn.fredrickson@dnr.mo.gov. Thanks.

Good that maintenance is being done.....timing is bad though! That takes out a very good Fall ride between Sedalia and Boonville for the best month of the year. Is it an emergency repair??



It might help to post the closure at some of the other trailheads last month too. I'd hate to think I was going to ride to Sedalia from Rocheport and then get all the way to Pilot Grove before there was any indication that the trail was closed.

We found a pair of men's prescription glasses in a brown case today

(Wednesday, September 29, 2010), on the trail about mile marker 54, just

near Weldon Spring. They were on the ground along with a small ziploc of

ice. Please reply to khoelting@msn.com.

Metro transit can be used to go from the Kirkwood AMTRAK station to Creve Couer. Take the

48 - South Lindbergh bus to the Ballas Transit Center and then 98 - Chesterfield Hanley

towards Hanley Station. I think Marine and Dorsett is the best point to get off the bus and

then bike into Creve Couer Park. Follow directions for suggestion 1 using the Page Avenue

bridge. This eliminates having to bike on the busiest roads. You can also use Metrolink from

the downtown AMTRAK station to Hanley Station and take the 98 bus to Creve Couer. More

information is available at http://www.metrostlouis.org/

Great route.

We are looking to ride from Hermann to Jeff City next week and was wondering if anyone could tell me a little bit about getting to Jeff City. We will be spending the night and don't have a clue about this city. Suggestions?

Jeff City is a great town, lots of good restaurants (I personally recommend Arris' Pizza Palace right across from the Capital Bldg) and plenty of hotel rooms.



The problem you are going to have is getting from the North Jefferson trailhead into Jeff City proper. The pedestrian/bike lane isn't usable on the Missouri River bridge. You will have to ride the shoulder on the actual highway portion of the bridge. If that doesn't bother you, you should have a great time in "Jeff", as the locals call it.

There are also several shuttles providing service to cyclists wishing to get from the trail into Jefferson City. You might check with the Hotel or B&B you would like to stay at in Jefferson City or there are others listed here and at the trail head. Cab service is also possible.

Briar Rose Inn provides shuttle to riders for a start. They are hardly the only one, but they are very friendly and helpful.

The southbound bridge lanes into Jeff City are wide. With care, riders can cross over fairly easily when traffic is low, exiting on Main at south end of bridge.



Last year at this time, the Deville and/or the Truman posted Katy specials with shuttle on the trailhead bulletin board.



Lots of free/inexpensive things to visit in and around the Capitol building. Nice cafe on Madison Street (bisques), about 2-blocks E-SE of Capitol. Popular ice-cream outlet 4-blocks further south on the same street. Enjoy.

We rode from Hermann to Jeff City on Sept. 24th. The traffic was fast & heavy on the

bridge. One side has essentially no shoulder and the other is blocked at the Jeff City side

by construction equipment & supplies. I would recommend planning your overnight in

another city or arranging transportation across the bridge.



We stayed at the Hotel DeVille. It was nice but they offered no shuttle service. They told us

that there were taxis with bike racks available. If you want to overnight in Jeff City you

might try other hotels to see if a shuttle is available.



We are fairly accustomed to riding in traffic and felt confident before approaching the

bridge that we would feel comfortable riding across. That was not the case.

My husband and I are going to ride from Sedalia to Hermann and then Amtrak back. Any suggestions about where and where-not to park our car while we ride from a Fri-Tues. This will be our first multi-night tour&camp&B&B on our touring bikes and we can't wait to enjoy this trail.

Park in the Depot parking lot. Give your name, car info, phone number, etc. to the folks in the store so someone will know who's vehicle it is. I've left mine there for several days on several occasions and it's always been okay and it's right on the trail too!

Our group (10 riders) just did this exact route. The Amtrak station

is closed, but you board the train across the tracks. The overnight

parking in 2 blks up the street by the police station. We didn't have

any problems w/our cars. We stayed at the Harbor Haus in Hermann the

first night. Innkeeper was very nice and came to the station to meet

us w/out pre-arrangements. Breakfast was adequate. First day rode to

Jefferson. Do not try to cross the bridge into Jefferson! It was

impossible last Friday as there was a big crane blocking the bike

lane!! Ended up getting a very nice local businessman to shuttle us

across. Have a plan other than a bike if you are going into Jefferson

city!! Second day we rode to Boonville. Stopped at Dotty Cafe in

Hartsburg for breakfast - it was AWESOME!!! Loved Boonville - Hotel

Fredrick is a must!! Great location, service and is beautifully

restored. Breakfast was great - included smoked salmon and bagels!!

Not much in the way of stores between Boonville and Sedalia so stock

up on water and snacks. Beautiful scenery though. The whole ride was

wonderful!! Most of our group was on fixed gears and it was a great

ride!! Have a great time!!

My reference was the Katy depot not the Amtrak station.....the Katy depot sits right beside the trail.

My brother-in-law lost his camera on the Katy today, between McBaine and Easley. If found, please reply to this post!

A Lost and Found section would be a nice addition to this web site!

We are starting our ride tomorrow . Has anyone heard of any sections

of the trail being closed due to flooding?

My husband and brother-in-law just finished the whole thing (Clinton to St. Charles) today, and they had no flooding. Good riding!

Just finished our first KATY Trail ride today, Sedalia to the Creve Coeur Park Connector Trail. Here are SIMPLE directions to the train station.



Take the Page Bridge Connector Trail/Creve Coeur Connector (red) to the Mallard Lake Loop (green) at the round about. Follow the green signs around the lake, past the Lakeside Cafe, all the way to the end of the bike trail at Creve Coeur Mill Road. Turn left onto Creve Coeur, to Olive. Turn left on Olive, cross 270, then turn right on New Ballas Road. In a couple more miles (after I64/40) turn left on Clayton, then right on Geyer, then left on Adams. And bingo, you've made it to downtown Kirkwood and Amtrak station on Argonne.



Creve Coeur had moderate traffic, two-lane road, drivers were courteous. There is a bike lane on much of Olive, and drivers were courteous. Ballas was lovely, and Geyer was absolutely delightful. All in all, a pleasant way to tour some of the St. Louis suburbs.



About 15-16 miles, total (forgot to check my odometer at the beginning of the Connector).

The weather forecast for Jeff City is saying there's a flood warning out. I was planning

to bike this weekend. Is the Katy open along the river?

PS I live a few hours from the Katy trail now. There's nothing like moving away to

make you appreciate what was close

riding the trali next week. wife is a vegetarian. do you know of any good resturants in Boonville, Columbia, Jefferson City or St Charles

Stein Haus in Booneville has very good food and will gladly make a vegetarian dish upon request. Our group eats there on our cross-state ride each year and we have a couple of vegetarians that are quite happy with what is served.

Rode the Katy from Sedaila to St. Louis over the last 4 days. On a whim I cancelled my pick-up in St. Charles and rode home to near Lafayette Square via the Page Bridge. Could have used a bit more signage on the Creve Coeur Lake side but made it to Hog Hollow then back to the city via Ladue. A great addition to the trail.

Go North on the street into North Jefferson City (the old Cedar City); turn left to cross over the Hwy 54 overpass. Stay straight. The terminal building is right in front of you.



YES, this is the same as the old Nick's Homestead at Rt C and Ellis. This location is owned and operated by one of Nick's sons, Scott Raithel.

My wife and I highly enjoyed our stay at the Brick Inn in Washington MO.

It started with a pickup at the Dutzow trailhead and a ride/tour into

Washington in a convertible Cadillac! Owners Art & Kathy are inviting

and accommodating to your every need. The location provided access to

Washington's downtown area which is full of shops & restaurants. All in

all, highly recommended.

The ONLY bad experience in our Katy Trail bike trip (Sedalia to St Chas) this week, was our night at the Hermann Hotel. It was filthy! Also, the website rate of $52 (confirmed) turned into $85 upon arrival. One manager stated it was because of a "festival" weekend. I call their website "bait and switch". The one redeeming factor was dinner at "Lynettes" next door. She is a good cook. Hotel management was unresponsive, stating they were "newly renovated" What a joke. We had stayed there once a few years back when it was a decent, inexpensive, good value, place to stay. Under current management, it has gone downhill dramatically. Now we would not stay there if it was free, and the only room in 50 miles. We would pedal on!

I think you mean Lyndee's, and I agree, they have very good food, and our service has always been great. I think their prices are very reasonable as well. Sorry for your experience at the hotel. Hopefully your next stay in the area will be a good one and make up for it.

We will be taking Amtrack from Hermamm to Washington and want to ride into St Charles. Can we ride on the bridge? Any suggestions. Thanks

It is not against the law to bike across the bridge, but it is 2-lane with no shoulders and most people wouldn't do it. Many of the people that advise against crossing bridges never ride on the highway andway. I wouldn't have a problem with bikeing it on a week day after morning rush. If you can ride 15-20 MPH, you can get across in 2 min. The speed limit is 45 is think.