Katy Trail Forum

I hosted a touring bicyclist from warmshowers.com last night who was riding the Katy to Machens going home to Memphis. He left Memphis in June and rode to the San Juan Islands and headed back to Memphis. The point being, I drove him and back to the Katy and we rode together to Matson trail head where we parted ways. But about 200 yards west of the trail head, a van pulled across the trail and completely blocked the trail. When we got closer we saw abot 20 Boy Scouts and 7 adults on bikes. They stated riding 2-3 abreast. When we caught up with them and blew our horns and told them we were passing on their left, they all ignored us and kept riding. Then when we got to the Matson trail head, they gathered around in a circle and blocked the trail again. I told them they should get off the trail and not block it because people where trying to walk and ride past. The Scout Master just ignored me and keep up his talk. If this is the way they are teaching Boy Scouts now, it is pretty terrible. Please, the Katy is not Wal-Mart. Learn trail etiquette before going to the trail. Stay to the right of trail in single file and pass on the left. Also either warn the people you are passing by saying on your left or sound a bell, horn, or anything to let the people know you are passing.

In several thousand miles of riding on the KATY I have way too many similar negative experiences with poorly informed (or downright rude) Scout masters. Ridiculous. (To be fair, not all Scouts I have encountered fit this category, but way too many.)

Evidently, the goal of some Scout masters is to teach their kids that they are the only people on the planet and that everything centers around them. That's useful. NOT!

I really believe most new people to the trail either to walk, run or bike do not know there is actually etiquette or basic traffic type rules. I believe they think it is just a large area gathering park, like the Scoutmaster believed, where if they want to talk or meet or stop on the trail with their bikes parked in the middle of the trail, they just stop. I see it all the time on the Katy Trail. And left passing or moving over in a single line, this is advanced training to these people. I believe there are postings at the trailhead and along the trail that shows these simply rules.

Listen up boys,
There is this thing called THE SCOUT LAW, it has 12 points that a scout is to try to live up to, points 3,4,5,and 6 are; A scout is ... Helpful, Friendly, Courteous, Kind....

That goes for the Scout Master also. But, who knows, maybe these days they don't go for that cornie old "citizen of fine character" stuff.

Hey, at least they didn't spend the weekend playing "kill everybody and everything" computer/video games.

Wow! I thought it was just a random thing. Maybe we should contact the National Boy Scouts and remind them about their own rules...not Wal-Marts! And yes, the rules are posted at each trail head. It is also just plan old common sense. And while I am at it...people...take your damn dogs off the trail before they poop. Or pick it up and get it off the trail. It looked like poop mines for 15 miles saturday morning. Just wait until horses are allowed on the whole trail. Maybe the rude and inconsiderate Scout Masters will fall in the horse poop!

I've had both good an bad experiences with scouts.

The Good: My buddy and I were all set up in Pilot Grove when a group of sbout 50 scouts rolled up in a bus to camp, and get a bike riding badge the next day. I thought "Oh crap..." They turned out to be great. They even shared a hot breakfast with me in the morning.

The Bad: Camping (not on the Katy) when all the kids went to bed, the leaders stayed up talking. One guy had a voice that carried, and carried, and carried. No problem with the kids, but I sure wish that guy would have either shut up, or gone to bed before 2 in the morning.

I know everyone seemed to think the monster bash a couple of weekends ago was great fun, but there were a lot of people on the KATY that day that had no idea how to share the trail with others, let people pass them, let others know they were going to pass by saying "passing on the left" or acting like adults. I know it was supposed to be a fun day, but rude inconsiderate behavior is never fun. I guess bad biking etiquette is a sign of the times, but it just should not be.

I agree Cathy. It seems people are just too into themselves. I guess that is why so many stupid reality TV programs are on the air. It is all about "in your face" nonsense. I don't think you can expect people who will watch "storage wars, pawn shop wars, beard wars, etc" to have consideration for others. I would rather watch dead grass grow! I have also noticed once there are no signs and yellow lines for people to follow, they are completely lost. Be it a trail, shopping center, or the water. Come on people, it is not hard to courteous and respectful to others.

OK, I know scouts (and their leaders) tend to be a little proud of themselves. I once encountered a scouting group camping on Bell Mtn that really seemed to have little care or even awareness that there were others up there with them.

Having said that, the trail is for everyone and the minor inconvenience of having to (egad!) slow down or even stop is just not worth getting worked up about. Jerry, you may know the Washington Riverfront Trail and a bit of controversy brewing over there. People tired of bikers whizzing past at unsafe miles per hour. Bikers tired of dolts who don't understand they should simply "get to the right." Maybe I'm too egalitarian but these trails aren't built and reserved just for us fast riders who know the rules. They're built for everyone, and that includes 2-year olds who can't drive a straight line and old folks who can't hear nor maybe even see you coming. I used to get slightly irritated when I couldn't cruise the Washington trail at 18 mph and not see the Red Sea part for me. Now I yield to the clueless, because it's their trail too.

Chill out. A few Scouts crowding the trail might be thoughtless, boorish and inconsiderate, but maybe a kid or two might come back out the following weekend and learn something.

Hey Hank, I called out over 100 times and blew my horn and the other rider rang his bell. I don't need to chill out. And I can't ride 18 mph on the Katy trail. I tried to explain to the scouts and the scout master about trail etiquette. You really do not understand the situation. Blocking the entire trail with a van for several minutes unloading equipment when the parking lot is just a few feet away. Riding 3-4 abreast and when someone ask you to move over and just being ignored. No, I don't need to chill out. People need to start paying attention and at least try to follow some rules. And they were not 2 years olds but 12-15 year olds and 7 adults. And as far as coming back out next weekend to learn something, I hope it is trail etiquette and being polite in general. It is just palin out rude, inconsiderate, and unresposible the way they acted. And if you condon this kind of behavior, that in itself is kind of sad.

palin? I meant plain.

I don't condone that behavior at all. It IS thoughtless, boorish, inconsiderate, as the kids say FAIL. And as I said, I too have experienced scouts who exhibited this curious scout gene. Maybe it's one of the badges they give: "Inconsiderate behavior in public places." My only point is I'd rather they be on the trail than not on it. And if their idiot scout leader has to park on the trail to unload their bikes, oh well.

I do get tired of some of the uppity talk regarding the Washington Riverfront Trail. I've taken my kids on that trail in training wheels, and yes I watched over them like papa bear to stay to the right but now and then they might have swerved over the line a bit. They learned to bike on that trail, learned to run on that trail. We don't manage the trail for the dude in spandex, we manage for everyone. But yes now and then the grandma convention walks four abreast blocking the trail. As I say I used to get irritated at this and in a small way still do, but frankly I get more irritated by this uppity attitude from the "real" cyclists who snip at anyone who dare get in their way.

I am a 60 year old man just out for the exercise. I do take offense to you calling me a person with an uppity attitude. You don't know me at all. I would like to meet you in person though to finish this discussion. I am the ole gizzer on a cheap dsb Schwinn..it is black an white. If you happen to see me on the trail..just give me a shout. Maybe I can really irritate you then. City slickers and now people have uppity attitudes. And I was talking only about the Katy Trail, not the Washington Riverfront Trail. So I really do not know what you were talking about.

Did I say you are uppity?

Just forget it.

Aww...nothing like a good "pissin' match" (as my grandpa used to call them) to create a little excitement on the Comment Board.

Glad we all care about the KATY. Enjoy gentlemen and ladies.

Yeah that scoutmaster was a jerk for dragging those boys out and trying to do something with them. And their bad behavior slowed everyone down what an entire 60 seconds maybe? Were they wrong and discourteous? You bet. But I'm willing to cut anyone some slack that is willing to try to corral a group of energetic impulsive youngsters. They don't write a handbook for that kind of thing.

Just like some idiot...jumps in with his very limited knowledge of a situation and spouts off. Oh well, I have to ride my bike, a$$wipe.

Well here's a choice. Would I rather share the trail with a profane 60 year old with anger issues or a group of scouts.

Both of you stop it right now! For crying out loud this is a discussion about trail etiquette and you are both being rude. And if either of you says, "He started it!" I'll take your computer and iPhone and send you to your room.

It seems ironic that in a discussion about etiquette and politeness the OP called out another participant to "finish the discussion in person",resorted to name calling and profanity.

Those scouts were in the wrong. No doubt about it. So are family groups that stop for water & snacks spread across the entire trail or let their kids meander and stop without warning to investigate a rock. But I'd rather see them using the trail than not.

I think a little polite education and being a good example can go a long way toward increasing awareness. For a lot of people riding a bike is not regular experience and combining that with trying to control a group of kids might present a handful for them.

I don't see why anyone would park a van across the trail. That is just stupid. But I hate to see this break down into a scout bashing exercise. For years I was involved with scouting including a long stint as Scoutmaster. I was always aware of the impact my energetic little group behaved around others. Did they ever get out of hand? Lots of the time. And I was right there bringing them back into line. I'm sorry the subject Scoutmaster and his adult leaders weren't doing that also. They aren't represent scouting's values well at all and the boy's learned nothing about appropriate behavior from the experience.

Just to be clear in following this drama, was "up yours" the scoutmaster or Jerry? Ha!!!

Shame on you DSD. The dog is asleep! :)

You should got their Troop number and city they were from and posted it. Nothing like giving them their 15 minutes of fame. :)

It happens! So much discussion over one act of possible misintended trail ediquitte. The gavel should come down on this discussion; horrific misdeed intentional or not. Be slow to judge another based on someone elses opinions or observations.

We were traveling the Katy in June. We ended up in McKittrick with plans to camp. The folks at Joey's offered their yard for free but we elected to stay in their B&B. It was great. What hospitality. A great dinner in their kitchen, a cold beer, and good conversation. It was a fine evening on the trail.

Thank you Bob! We hope to see you again soon.

Next spring I am planning on doing a week long, out and back tour of the Katy Trail with a friend. We wanted to get to St. Charles by the end of our third day so we could have a relatively short ride into St. Louis for a day of exploring before we turned around. We plan on camping every single night. The dilemma is that there appears to be no camping (of the tent variety) in St. Charles. There are multiple hotels and an RV park, but, as far as I can tell, no camp sites. Am I missing something or is this really the case?

Did you read what you just wrote? The St. Charles trail is down in the middle of an old part of town, and you want to camp? Sounds like a recipe for trouble at 2:00 a.m. to me. Re-think that dude!

My advice is get a hotel (you'll need a good shower after 3 days anyway), make or find a friend who will let you sleep on his couch, sign up at warmshowers.net, re-think your agenda, or come up with a new plan for staying in St. Charles. Camping in St. Charles is not a good idea if you ask me.

The most convenient camping closest to St. Charles and the Katy is probably Klondike Park(it has showers) at MM64. At MM43(Page Avenue) is where you could cross over into St. Louis County. I have seen groups camping at MM40 at Frontier Park in the City of St. Charles before but very doubtful that they would permit individuals to camp there.

Mokane bar and grill will fill all your water bottle for free and with ice if needed. We stopped and had lunch great food good prices and very friendly. To all you are missing if you don't stop

There are some really good folks here in Mokane,
We are just cautious to some of the big city slickers. We will get to you, just takes a little more time here.

Billy, Billy, Billy.......you're going to have to get over this "big city slicker" thing. :-)

Jim, Billy probably thinks Union and Hermann are big cities! People are people. I worked in the big cities for over 40 years, but I have always lived in the country. And most people will usually treat you as they want to be treated. If you act like a d&$#ba$#, that is probably how you will be treated. Just my observations over 60 years.

Jerry, I agree.....an a$$hole is an a$$hole no matter where they live.

The truth is the truth Jim. People must have very low self esteem when they have to say things about other people. If you meet people from the city, country, other states, or other countries...you just might learn something from them...and they are just like you. I never could figure out what a "city slicker" is anyway. Do they slick back their hair? Are they smarter than country bumpkins? Are they coated with oil? Do they have teflon skin? I think it might be a conspiracy!

Sorry Jerry, Jim,
Just some of the big city folks make us feel like you said "country bumpkins". Can't help it, just a character flaw. Will say that most of the folks from Kansas City way and the boys that come up from Texas are real nice.

Just giving you some crap Billy......I'm just not a big fan of lumping folks into categories based on where they live.

Same here Jim. People are people. When I was teaching I woild here my students say something like "I can't stand that person...they are from so&so." I told them instead of hating that person to talk to them and they would probably become friends. And it would work most of the time. I have made and met friends from all walks of life from all over the world.

Sorry about the woild, it should be would.

I haven't seen much of the world, don't mind if you call me a hayseed,country bumpkin,heck I might be a city slicker myself some day, just give me a half a smile when we talk and I am your friend for life. PS, I love Mokane and the Katy trail.

This motel is just what I expected for the cheap price for the weekend as far as being run down and having poor amenities, however, come on owners,,,,,,,please, please consider cleanliness and sanitation for the sake of the public. The only good thing I can say is that after I called to say I had left my 2 rings in the room the day I checked out,,,you were honest enough to contact me a week later to say you found them and I want to thank you for your honesty and in returning them to me.

So let me recap......it was what you expected for the price you paid but,after they were honest enought to return property you carelessly left,you decided to slam them on a public forum. At least you were thoughtful enough not to mention their name.

They met your expectations? Where is your beef? They were honest and you got what you knew you were going to get. You do get what you pay for.

October 2012: We biked from Mokane to Sedalia and back. We had 6 flat tires caused by thorns on the trail (8 total flats). It was our third time biking the Katy trail, but it may be our last time.

Too bad about your flats Iowa. But instead of not coming back to the Katy, consider Kevlar tires. Maybe get a bike that will handle wider tires too, or maybe one of these great new gravel grinder bikes. My Salsa Vaya uses 29er wheels with 42c Kevlar touring tires, and I have had 0 flats in about 500 Katy miles this year. The new bike also makes what was already a wonderful thing even better. AND, I cruise fully loaded at 13-14 mph.

Your decision to not come back is no skin off my nose either way, but I've done RAGBRAI (and I'll do it again--I even got my Karras Loop patch this year from Karras himself), but if I had to choose, I'd take a week on the Katy every time over a week in Iowa. Iowa is fun, but the Katy is the Katy!!!!!! AND, I can spend time on the Katy way more often than just the last full week of July.

Sorry you had a miserable day. Flats are NO fun. As noted above (and I mention every time it comes up) FLAT PROTECTION is the #1 thing to think about when riding the KATY. Forget all the conversation about how wide the tire ought to be...you can run anything from 25s to 44s as far as I am concerned...but NONE OF THAT MATTERS if they aren't a good flat protection tire. Again - sorry. Best wishes.

Sorry for the flat, Raggers. Kudos to 40 yrs. KT is not like those clean Iowa roads except the rumbles. As the others said you may need a KT bike with kevlar and a separate Ragbrai bike. Keep the KT faith and come back.

Agree. Flats are no fun on trail rides, esp if one must repair the tube itself whose leak might be hard to find. Carrying more than one good tube helps save some time here. But that’s not preventative.

In my own war with flats, I’ve added two liners to my flat-resistant tubes and tires. One of these liners is fairly wide to protect the sides of the tires. Before adding air to them, they look like snakes that have swallowed something. :) But I don’t get untimely trail flats anymore.

I was riding the trail with some friends this weekend and we stoppedI in to moKane bar. I must say I'm impressed with the new owners. The place had a friendly manner to it, was busy and ppl were having a great time. The food was delicious I recommend the cheeseburger it was the best and the biggest I have ever had. The owners Mel and Kelly hats off to you we enjoyed coming there and we will return again

Is it legal to camp along the trailside?

No.

JP, the trail is a combination deliverance and unforgiven so I would not even think about it. Know what I mean? I believe there are many people who can provide detailed CAL spots.

JP, it depends on what you have in mind for camping. I ride the trail several time each year and have been or many years. YES there are places you can pitch a tent without harm or disturbance. The parks department does not allow camping in unauthorized places along the trail. However, there are many places and people along the trail who will have a safe place to pitch a tent for a night or two. Give me a shout if you would like details.

I see from the info that there is a hostel at Tebbetts for $5, are there any other places like this between Tebbetts and Machens?

I would be very careful tent pitching right off the trail. It is a state public park that has open and close, sunrise to sunset hours.

Between Tebetts and Machens you can pitch a tent in Marthasville in the ball fields. The caretaker charges $5 but it's well worth it. Check to see if the showers are still open. Closer to Machens look for Klondike Park.
Jharte

BOO!!!

Who rode in the Monster Bike Bash? I did! I was the Pumpkinhead pulling the Phred R.I P. trailer! Anyone else?

We wanted to alert everyone that the trailheads on the Katy Trail that have running water and flush restrooms have been winterized in preparation for freezing temperatures. This means that drinking fountains have been turned off and restrooms have been closed, from Nov. 1 to March 31. Trailheads at which restrooms remain open over the winter include the following:

Machens
St. Charles (the restrooms in Frontier Park, managed by St. Charles Parks & Recreation Department)
Weldon Spring
Matson
Augusta
Treloar
McKittrick
Portland
Mokane
Tebbetts
McBaine
Rocheport (the restrooms remain open, but the drinking fountain is turned off)
Clifton City

Thank you for the "Heads up"....or should I say "Heads winterized", as it may be more appropriate.

For all you folks out there, just because the trailheads have been winterized, it doesn't mean that the trail is closed: It just means that you might have to get off the trail and go to a C-store, restaurant, etc. to get drinks and use the bathroom. Too bad we have to have winter, but I suppose it is a necessary evil ;)